I have issued three public challenges (not to mention several private ones) to the more than 215,000 followers on my Facebook page for atheists to provide specific qualified evidence for Darwinian evolution. Each time, my challenge has been met with deafening silence. Yet, when I say something about faith in God or the wonder of His creation, I am met with hostility, insults and mockery from outspoken atheists who say I am unscientific and stupid. Maybe I am ignorant…enlighten me then – answer my question!
I have been in the Church all my life, but I have never seen the dogmatism and blind faith demonstrated by these atheists. They regurgitate old, tired, refuted arguments like a chorus of mocking jays with such overconfidence they seem like a parody of themselves.
If you didn’t see my challenge, here it is again. I am asking for one example (just one) that meets these five criteria:
- It must be a random mutation that has occurred naturally
- It must have been observed (aka science)
- It must have added NEW information to the genome
- The mutation must also benefit the host
- Don’t resort to citing silly examples of E. Coli or other microorganisms.
Darwin’s model requires this to happen trillions of times. I’m asking for just one example. Truth be told, I could drop several of these criteria and lower the threshold significantly and the challenge would remain unmet. The theory is incredibly vulnerable, yet the atheist will often say to me with religious conviction, “Evolution is a proven fact.” This is such an intentionally misleading statement and here’s why:
Every Christian, no matter how conservative, believes that organisms do adapt and speciate (this is part of God’s brilliant design). If NASA built a rover that could go to an alien planet and adapt to any environmental condition it encountered this would be an example of a more elegant design not less. How then does an atheist look at the amazing ability of life to adapt and, rather than praising it’s brilliant designer, conclude there is none?
So again, Christians DO believe in the kind of “evolution” that exists in the real world; namely, adaptation and speciation. But the Darwinian claim that organisms can evolve into different “kinds” (as opposed to species) by gaining complexity through the addition of new genetic information has NEVER been observed…not even once! (let me clarify, that when I say “Kinds” I’m making a reference to Biblical terminology. The Bible speaks of “kinds” which are a grouping similar to what we would describe today as a genus (plural genera). So there is room for a lot of variation within a “kind”, many species in fact).
Every mutation we know of is the result of an exchange, duplication or loss of information. For example, I have literally had atheists point to Down syndrome as an example of evolution! Who would argue that Down syndrome is a beneficial mutation? But even if it were, it is simply caused by a duplication of genetic information (a third copy of chromosome 21). There is no new genetic information being added whatsoever!
This means that the kind of mutations we have observed cannot change organisms into different or more complex kinds. They will adapt, but they will never be anything other than what they are:
- A dog’s genes may be manipulated to produce many different breeds but they will always be dogs.
- Fruit flies may grow a second pair of wings, but they will always be fruit flies.
- Finches may grow longer beaks, but they will always be finches.
- Bacteria may find new food to metabolize will always be bacteria.
These adaptations are evidence for a fact that no one disputes, namely that organisms can often adapt to their environment in certain ways. There is not one shred of evidence to suggest that bacteria are becoming dogs and flies are becoming finches. This means that Darwin’s cult is a matter of faith not science. Believe what you want to, but don’t be a hypocrite and hold the Christian to a different standard.
My bottom line – I don’t believe in atheists. They are at war, not with God, but with themselves. They are as conflicted as a child denying its mother. This is why their resistance seems painful and passionate – not what you would expect from someone denying a fairytale. They are rejecting the inner witness of their own souls, the testimony of nature and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It must be an extremely itchy existence “kicking against the goads.” My heart is broken for the atheist. I’m praying for you today (sincerely). I don’t pray that you would come to any religion (I hate religion as much as anyone). But I pray that you would come to know the love of God through Jesus Christ.
This author seems to be under the impression that “disproving” evolution would somehow make an invisible creator that made it all in six days a fact… And further makes the leap that if said creator existed, it must be the creator from the bible…
Disproving, or disbelief in, one view does not equate proof of another view.
So what does evolution have to do with Atheism? Let’s say the theory of evolution by natural selection went away right this second. That bring no one even one step closer to justified belief in a diety. I do happen to accept the scientific theory and total fact of evolution but that’s not why I’m an Atheist. Likewise my Atheism is not why I accept evolution. Mutually exclusive.
Even if you don’t believe in Atheists, we do believe in you. We believe that you still have the capacity to investigate, learn, grow and maybe even potentially change your mind. I believe this even if you don’t.
Bottom Line FACT.
Ignoring all the false claims of there being no intermediates (the ones we have are exactly what scientific illiterates would be demanding if we didn’t have them), the fosssil sequence IS in an Evolutionary pattern (e.g. amphibians first appear way before first mammals). Being able or not to explain how this pattern happened does not falsify that it has happened.
Incidentally the fossil pattern (among numerous other things such as super duper microevolution), at a stroke, totally falsifies Biblical creation into the myth that we all know it is.
I could seriously write a book on the utter failings of Biblical Creation but consider this as a taster. If the deliberately vague term “Kind” is a seperate word in the Bible to “species” (as it must be according to the pseudo science lobby) then what are the two Ancient words in Ancient Hebrew that seperate “Kind” from “species”?
Different species does not prove evolution. There are many species of dog but every one is still a dog. Don’t you think in ancient times that they needed to differentiate between species just like we do today? This doesn’t prove evolution though. All this proves is that they had an understanding of different species. Kinds in the Bible states it perfectly. It’s interesting that God said in Genesis over and over that everything would produce according to its kind. Wonder why He felt it was necessary to make that point? Maybe He knew it might come in to question.
“Different species does not prove evolution.”
It’s not so much that the species are different but it is the clear and undeniable pattern of the first appearance of each major group as evidenced by the raw data.
Your example of dogs is a classic as these first appeared way after the first mammals which appaered way after first reptiles etc etc. Why do you think that is?
“There are many species of dog but every one is still a dog.”
What does that have to do with the fossil pattern? Do you have the fossil evidence to back up that claim? If you do please tell me the intermediates between wolf and pekinese. Why can’t twpo pekinese produce a wolf?
“Don’t you think in ancient times that they needed to differentiate between species just like we do today?”
The Ancients did not have access to the data of the fossil pattern which has only become detailed in the last 150 years or so. With such vital data not being available to the ancients, they had no chance of providing a rationial explanation. Hence they did their best by inventing some flood myth which has been well and truly falsified by Geology, even without the fossils.
“Kinds in the Bible states it perfectly.”
“Kind” has never been defined. How can you go from just two cat “kinds” on the Ark to the vastly differing species of domestic cats, cheetahs and lions as depicted in Ancient Egyptian drawings over just a few centuries? That requires a superduper rate of Evolution that no Evolutionist would dare claim.
“It’s interesting that God said in Genesis over and over that everything would produce according to its kind.”
Leaving aside there is no evidence for the God of the Bible nor the Bible itself, “Kind” can only be a different word to “species” if the Ancient Hebrew had a seperate word for each. If you told an ancient to gather two of each “kind”, i gauarantee that person would relate “kind” as being the same a species. Now if the Bible had said this “And God spaketh to Noah, “gather of each kind, not species, but kind …..”” then you may possibly have a crumb of an argument.
Nah, “Kind” is a term invented by Neo Creationists in an attempt to avoid the logistical embarrasment of fitting every species into an ancient wooden boat. I say “attempt” because the whole Flood story is still a logistical impossibility.
Question on Evolutionary theory vs science (which I’m no expert in) but…
How do these 3 laws of science tie in with evolution. From what I understand… there are no known exceptions.
1. Law of Biogenisis – states life only comes from life. where did life then originate?
2. 2nd Law of Thermodynamics – simply…every system goes from order to disorder or tends towards decay. Evolutionary theory contradicts this.
3. The Law of Mass Action – states that any reversible reaction will never continue in a direction to produce what is already in excess. This contradicts the “primordial soup” theory. Amino acids (required for life) combining in a watery environment to form dipeptides (baby proteins) release water, which is already in excess in this environment.
since you define animals as kinds, please tell me what “kind” is a duckbill platypus
Well I don’t get it what does being an atheist have to do with evolution? Well how about proving your god without using your bible.
4 arguments for God w/o the Bible:
1 Rationality – where does rationality come from if the universe and humanity are the result of blind, random, non-rational forces? Rationality can only come from rationality – not irrationality. Rationality is with humanity and within the universe because it has been coming from a rational source all along – the mind of God.
2 Causality – what caused the universe to come into existence? Space, time, matter, & energy all had a beginning. Whatever caused it is subject to none of these properties. It must have been an intelligent and powerful mind/personality because only a mind/personality can make a decision to get it all going.
3 Intelligent Design. The universe and biology appears to be designed (even Richard Dawkins and Francis Crick have admitted that). Especially the genetic information code of DNA requires a design – software programs don’t come from an explosion of a computer. Design requires a designer.
4 Morality – Moral laws and resulting moral decisions rise above the physical laws of the universe. Moral decisions are always person-to-person, assume each person has some essential worth above and beyond the physical stuff of the universe, and assume knowing the difference between good and evil. Thus a moral law requires a moral law giver – a person in whom morality is anchored (morality cannot be granted by the carbon atom, the water molecule, physical laws, etc). This person must be a God who grants people with essential worth and a moral compass.
Why would we get rid of the record of the only one who was there, who cannot lie, and recorded all these things so we could know what happened?
We already have tons of evidence for the spontaneous assembly of biological automatons.
Also have a look at the seti talks video on youtube:
Like many people say, the evidence is overwhelming. Yes it’s sad God is not a reality. It would be nice to definitely know we have a definite purpose, the truth is hard to swallow. Swallow it though, and make amends to your lost time. We can still make a difference, it doesn’t have to be all death and gloom.
Here’s the croco-duck
Your fifth criteria can be reworded this way: do not include any example which may qualify as passing the first four criteria, because I won’t accept it anyway. I find it impossible that you could have challenged > 200,000 people and got no responses, given how easy it is to see evolution in action.
You don’t see evolution in action. You see natural selection happening. Any reputable creationist won’t deny that, because it’s observable and repeatable.
One needn’t be an atheist and hold to evolution; atheists in ancient times didn’t.
As a counter, please give one indisputable example of an all-loving deity who intervenes in natural events.
Here you go… this fits your criteria quite nicely. There are real reasons evolution is so widely accepted by the scientific community. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/061201_quietcrickets
Fascinating stuff kevin and I appreciate that link. Great read. Though it would be easy to argue this didn’t meet criterion #3.
This kind of example is micro-evolution – NOT macro-evolution. We still got crickets, and they lost the the ability to chirp, which means they have lost the genetic information which was helpful to find a mate. NOT AT ALL AN EXAMPLE OF MACRO EVOLUTION. Nice try.
Sadly non-believers have NO knowledge of the truth. Because the knowledge of the truth has NOT been given to UNBELIEVERS, because they reject the truth of the one who created them, Jesus Christ, who gives BELIEVERS the knowledge of the truth when we accept Him.
Jesus was nailed to a cross to set us FREE, to SEE and understand truth, and grant us eternal life. All non-believers are doing by rejecting Jesus is condemning their own soul, and refusing to accept the FREE gift of everlasting life just about to come. A man reaps what he sows. Galatians 6:7.
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. Romans 2:5.
Jesus said Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: Matthew 7:7. KJV.
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near. Isaiah 55:6 King James Version (KJV) Watch:
The Pearl of all prophecies still being fulfilled today Matthew 13:13 – 16. http://youtu.be/m56hn2_js0s?list=UUrHRtJu3O3yBkfqxzA8BADg ;And Enter Through The Narrow Gate, Matthew 7:13 http://www.realdiscoveries.org/videobox/watch/112/enter-through-the-narrow-gate-matthew-713.html
You ask that someone prove Evolution, when all you’re doing, is to change the burden of proof from proving that ‘god’ exists, to prove that Evolution is real. The very fact that we Great Apes are here should be proof enough. The most simple proof of Evolution is a blood test. We carry the genetic material of the Neanderthal Man in our genome, being that he was our direct ancestor, that we Homo Sapiens lived side by side with the Neanderthals, and interbred with them. Try to deny that it, because you can’t! Also, I’ll tell you why you can’t prove it. Your bible is a claim, designed and written by man, and is rich in contradictory, fallacy conjecture and lies! you can’t prove that jesus ever lived, and you can’t prove that Moses didn’t write the commandments up on the mountain all by himself according to what his thoughts were or even that the Jews walked out of EGYPT.
DID YOU KNOW? The worlds greatest Palaeontologist, that is, the one’s who are telling the truth. CANNOT find one single ”missing link” or ancestor to any living creature?
The fact is there are massive gaps between every creature and animal, with NO evidence of transition proving evolution.
Natural selection is a fallacy based on unsound, unproven, arguments.
Evolution is theory, theory, theory.
Sadly the theory of evolution is for many a mistaken belief, based on enormous deceptions and enormous logic failure, reasoning and understanding of the truth which renders evolution invalid, because it consists of a range of elaborate deceptions.
The theory of evolution is a delusion figment of the imagination, fabricated by bias people with a personal agenda.
The theory of evolution is a form of scientific misconduct, imaginary and theoretical that is, invented by the prejudice authors.
The authors of evolution are fraudulent and produce false information producing fairy tale fiction and fantasy.
Evolutionist do not prove to show a proper sense of responsibility
Evolution is an UNPROVEN theory. A theory is an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information, guess and speculation.
Evolution has NO Peer reviewed info proving Evolution because it cannot be proved which is why Evolution remains a theory.
Evolution IS a faith view belief thinking based on false suppositions and speculation.
Evolution IS conjecture which IS an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
Evolution IS a supposition which IS a belief held without proof or certain knowledge which IS an assumption or hypothesis.
A person left a comment saying:
Natural selection is a myth. Nobody has ever seen it or proved it exists. No mutation has ever been proved to be beneficial. Basically, Evolution is the greatest hoax ever duped on the human race. Do scientists lie and forge the data to validate their special theories? Every day. By supernova49
Why do most of the human race believe and follow Natural selection?
Jesus has already given us the answer here: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19 King James Bible.
Yet atheists will completely ignore all the truth facts and continue to shout, scream and blaspheme until the day will come when it will be to late, when they will then realise, we was their good friends that only wanted good for them which they hated. Just as the Gospels mean, ”Good News.”
Sadly no true facts or evidence will convince most of the human race to repent and revert from their unproven theories and accept God’s love, forgiveness and grace that comes by Jesus Christ and be saved.
When we look at the crazy unproven theory of Natural selection, you have to laugh your head off, to stop your heart from crying.
The fact that most of the human race would rather believe in fairy tale fiction and fantasy and in the end forsake their own soul and sacrifice living in Gods perfect Kingdom to come, where God will restore the world back to being more then perfect, when God
will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” Revelation 21:4.
And where there will never again be any more suffering or pain, dying or killing, where: “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.” Isaiah 11:6. Dear friend, WILL YOU BE THERE? Where will your soul end up? Are you saved? Click here. Jesus was nailed to a cross to take our sins and buy back our souls and grant us eternal life.
If we would only believe what the bible tells us.
Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save. Psalms 146:3
Dear friends let us believe what the bible states, as our FUTURE depends on IT.
He who has ears let him hear. Matthew 11:15
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. Psalms 118:8
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies. Psalms 40:4
Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he? Isaiah 2:22
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed are those who put their trust in mere humans, who rely on human strength and turn their hearts away from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5
SEEK THE LORD WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come Matthew 24:14. King James Bible.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 11:15 (KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:9 King James Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.
Never quote the Bible to try to convert an atheist. Your preaching is complete nonsense.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.~1 Corinthians 1:18
This is one example among many, although evolution happens on the scale of millions of years. Knowing what will be random beneficial mutation or not in the future is impossible to know Before hand, and was never a part of the theory of evolution. It is not required to “prove” evolution and is argumentation “of the gaps”. It’s a kind of “missing link” argument that is silly.
Evolution happened, there are Mountains of evidence, and is happening every day.
Link to random genetical mutation benefitting moths:
I believe/I know God created everything to be complex, and subject to change according to environmental circumstances etc.
Just look at the large land mass Pangaea(1 continent) we now have seven continents, which all shared the same species at some time in history!! many evolutionary examples of same Genera can be found on the west coast of Africa, as on the East Coast of USA!! But evolution did help the different species to adapt according to climate changes etc.
It is quite strange that atheists believe in science and evolution!!here is my point evolution must come from some created form of life, right!?so its cool that you believe in evolution, but God created the species that are evolving, and he created each specie with modifiable genes to adapt to each and every environmental factor!!
So for the life of me I can not understand 1. Why atheist can not see the fact that the science they use to disprove God’s creation, was actually created by God for us to try and understand Hes complex creation.
2. Believing in evolution, without God’s creation, is like believing in driving a car, but without acknowledging that a car has mechanical parts that allow it to be driven.
3. I believe in evolution as well, how else would Gods creation adapt to the varying climatic regions from arctic tundra, to semi arid deserts, to tropical rainforests!?so you have got half truth there..evolution is real, adapt or die, look at all the species that didnt make it!?
4. In the book of Genesis..God’s creation is epicly told and has all the info one needs for this discussion!! I choose to believe that man was created from dust by the mighty breath of God. atheist choose to believe they existed because some form of prehistoric chimp, evolved to walk upright, and to reason….whatever the case of what you believe..surely more credit is due to the creator of heaven and earth, the universe with all its stars..his name is God….Amen
May I ask a slightly personal question, Daniel? Is it lucrative being an evangelist (I’m betting it is, extremely). For you do seem extremely well prepared for atheists’ logic. The fact that you’re able to apparently understand most of what we tell you and STILL dismiss it all leads the cynic in me to assume you’re just another FRAUD.
Though I’ll fully understand if you choose not to incriminate yourself by admitting your shameful ways.